Legislature(2007 - 2008)BARNES 124
03/26/2008 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HCR22 | |
| HB241 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | HCR 22 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HB 241 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
HB 241-STAMPEDE STATE RECREATION AREA 2:29:28 PM CO-CHAIR JOHNSON announced that the next order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 241, "An Act creating the Stampede State Recreation Area." The committee took an at-ease from 2:30 p.m. to 2:32:38 PM. REPRESENTATIVE DAVID GUTTENBERG, Alaska State Legislature, prime sponsor of HB 241, testified that the bill would create the Stampede State Recreation Area. He noted that the area on the map with diagonal lines has historically been called the "Wolf Townships". He drew attention to an area on the map bordering the boundary of Denali National Park and Preserve and explained that many people over the years have had designs on this area: the National Park Service would like to add it to the park, there have been proposals to put a railroad through the area, and Governor Murkowski wanted to put a road through it. The people of the Denali Borough recognized they needed to be proactive, he related. They have traditionally used this area for many years for many purposes and the bill is designed to turn this into a state recreation area without limiting any of these traditional uses. Representative Guttenberg said the Denali Borough came to him and Senator Thomas with the proposal, which came out of a long process. The Denali Borough rotates its assembly meetings among its four communities and everybody from four-wheelers to photographers has been involved. The result was a unanimous resolution to [establish this as a state recreation area] because the people want to preserve the traditional uses of the area such as hunting and recreation. Part of the process was ensuring that no interest groups were excluded. The purpose is to be able to plan and determine the area's future without excluding any of these traditional uses. 2:36:24 PM CO-CHAIR JOHNSON inquired how much private property is within the boundary of the proposed recreation area. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG responded it is all state land. In further response to Co-Chair Johnson, Representative Guttenberg confirmed there is no private property and the eminent domain provision is just in there. He said there is no active mining going on. In response to a member of the audience, he corrected himself and said there may be a couple of holdings, but the intent is not to take away any of those rights. CO-CHAIR JOHNSON asked whether this is the area where the railroad that was once talked about would go through to the backside of Denali National Park and Preserve. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG replied it could be. The Kantishna- holding folks would also go through here, he added. CO-CHAIR JOHNSON inquired whether turning this into a recreation area would prohibit that. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG answered no. CO-CHAIR JOHNSON commented he does not see explicit language for motorized use and as "a roads guy" he does not want to see something that would not allow this to go through. 2:38:33 PM REPRESENTATIVE ROSES asked whether there are folks with mining permits who have not yet exercised them. CHRISTIAN GOU-LEONHARDT, Staff to Representative David Guttenberg, Alaska State Legislature, responded that, according to the Division of Mining, Land and Water, there are no active state or federal mining claims in the area. He also related that James King, Director of the Division of Parks & Outdoor Recreation, has been working with the Division of Mining, Land and Water as well as the Division of Oil & Gas to ensure that no resource development will be blocked in the area. 2:39:34 PM REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH inquired who owns the subsurface rights. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG replied it is all state land. REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH asked whether the subsurface is included. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG nodded yes. REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH asked whether the property includes the famous bus from [the true story] Into the Wild. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG answered yes; the bus is located along the Savage River. 2:40:22 PM REPRESENTATIVE EDGMON inquired what the difference is between a recreation area and a park, and why is the bill for a recreation area as opposed to some other designation. JAMES KING, Director, Central Office, Division of Parks & Outdoor Recreation, Department of Natural Resources, explained that a state recreation area is less restrictive than a state park and allows many different uses. For example, the Chena River State Recreation Area near Fairbanks allows hunting, fishing, and camping, and has all-terrain vehicle (ATV) trails, non-motorized trails, dog mushing, a rifle range, and roads. A legislatively designated state park usually has more restrictive language in regard to activities. 2:42:05 PM CO-CHAIR GATTO observed that page 2, line 2, states, "continued motorized access for owners of private property". MR. GOU-LEONHARDT responded there are a few inholdings. His office spoke with members of the public about that very sentence, he related, since "continued" implies that people who have not yet accessed their private property would not be able to do so. He understood this is not the intent - owners of private property inholdings should be able to have access. There has therefore been discussion to remove the word "continued". CO-CHAIR GATTO asked whether these inholdings are large or cabins where someone owns the land or squatters. MR. GOU-LEONHARDT understood there are a few cabin sites. 2:43:54 PM CO-CHAIR GATTO inquired whether the cabin owners have rights or are they cabin sites that are not owned. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG answered, "Our intent is not to change any of the conditions that anybody has out there currently, that if somebody has a cabin and there is an existing easement or access agreement, that that stays in place." CO-CHAIR GATTO asked why not just leave it the way it is. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG responded people in the Denali Borough came to him saying they wanted to be more proactive in the planning and the future of this area. These people are the majority members who are traditional users and they would like to be more active in the management than they are currently able to be, such as putting in turnouts or park benches. REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH stated she would like to know how many pieces of private property there are and the size of each property. She also still has the question about subsurface rights. Additionally, she wants to see the provision for resale as she does not want to see the state close off rights to the property if someone wishes to sell outside of their family. 2:47:20 PM MR. KING, in response to Representative Roses, confirmed there are quite a few state recreation areas around the state that are managed by the Division of Parks & Outdoor Recreation. REPRESENTATIVE ROSES asked whether the state charges user fees for its state recreation areas. MR. KING answered it depends on the recreation area, there are charges for some areas. At public meetings in Healy there was a real mix of testimony, he related, but a couple of things came out very clearly. One was that the public loves that area and they love it for a variety of reasons - because they hunt, fish, drive off-road, dog sled, hike, ski, or watch the caribou. They said they really like it the way it is and want it to continue to be that way. But they felt that change is coming because the state's population is growing and they fear that this place will not be able to be used like it is. Mr. King said what was heard loud and clear was for the division to come in and do a public management plan in which the public dictates what goes on and what is allowed, and where restrictions, if any, are created. There would be local management through an advisory council and a local ranger living there. Fees would be a piece of that. Whether to collect fees is a legislative decision as far as whether to put a budget in the general fund, or collect fees, or a mix of funding mechanisms to support the area. REPRESENTATIVE ROSES commented that according to HB 241, the people currently using the area will be able to continue using it in a manner to which they have become accustomed, but now they will have to pay a fee to do it. He recounted his personal experience when Kachemak Bay State Park was first established and how people who had not yet purchased their open-to-entry recreational sites within the park boundaries lost their land. Thus, even with the best of intentions of protecting what people have, there is no way of knowing that the protection will continue in the future. He said he is not opposing the bill at this point, but he has other questions and things he will be watching for. 2:52:18 PM DAVE TALERICO, Mayor, Denali Borough, drew attention to the map and said the area being talked about is just below the red letters spelling "Denali Borough". This has been very contentious, he said. He has been the mayor for almost six years and this area of real estate has been on his desk all six years. He pointed out the Stampede Trail on the map and noted there was a proposal for a rail line that would have gone all the way to Kantishna. There was also a proposal by the former administration to make a 12-foot-wide pioneer road to the Sushana River. The Stampede Trail is an R.S. 2477 all the way to the Stampede Mine on the Clearwater Fork of the Toklat River. He clarified that the R.S. 2477 does not go all the way to Kantishna; it goes to the Stampede Mine and from the mine the Moose Creek Trail goes over the top of the Kantishna Hills to Kantishna and that is an R.S.T. This is pertinent to the issue, he explained, because it shows that designation of this area does not eliminate the ability to have a transportation corridor and to have that corridor go beyond Denali National Park and Preserve and into western Alaska. The Denali Borough would prefer to see any future state transportation corridor go beyond a dead-end zone that would be controlled by another agency. 2:55:11 PM CO-CHAIR JOHNSON inquired whether the state has actually settled with the federal government or is just claiming on the trail. MR. TALERICO responded that to the best of his knowledge the state is still claiming that R.S. 2477 as a trail. MR. TALERICO continued his testimony, noting that this area is very heavily used by Denali Borough residents as well as people from the North Star Borough. There is hunting, grayling fishing, ATV use, off-road vehicle use, snowmobiling, skijoring, and camping. There are Alaskan-owned businesses for dog sled tours, horseback riding, and jeep tours within the area. It is a great place for small businesses owned by Alaskans. Many Native Alaskans come down for the blueberries, he added. There is history in the area that is worth preserving, such as cable crossings over the Savage and Teklanika rivers that were installed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. There are also old, carved Alaska Railroad stakes. The famous Into the Wild bus is receiving a lot of attention and [the borough] has concerns about what its search and rescue people will do and whether there will be a management plan to manage that. 2:57:56 PM MR. TALERICO stated that a management plan is really what is being talked about. [The borough] wants to take the appropriate arm of state government and put it in place so that a management plan can be created. The land is managed by the Department of Natural Resources, Division of Mining, Land and Water, and he said he thinks they have the responsibility for this right now. If this area is made into a state recreation area, then there is the ability to put a plan in place in order to keep the residents' traditional activities afloat. It also provides some economic opportunities near the area. This will be a completely different venue than the national park's management plan. There are things that are not allowed in Denali National Park and Preserve that will be allowed if this becomes a state recreation area. He said the borough would like to use its property adjacent to the east boundary [of Denali National Park and Preserve] near Eightmile Lake to generate revenue. He has used this area for 39 years, he noted, and he would like to have some kind of a plan that will ensure this area will be there for use by his grandchildren. MR. TALERICO pointed out that along the Parks Highway there are no state recreation areas or campgrounds between the Chena River State Recreation Area in Fairbanks and Denali State Park - a distance of 194 miles and the largest gap in Alaska's highway system. [The proposed Stampede State Recreation Area] is right in the center of this gap. He said [the borough] appreciated that its representative and senator listened. The borough's biggest concern is the traditional uses, and that is why [the borough] specifically asked that hunting, trapping, fishing, and off-road use stay in place. If that changed, so would the support of the Denali Borough. 3:02:24 PM REPRESENTATIVE ROSES asked whether having to pay a fee in the future to utilize the area would be bothersome. MR. TALERICO replied he does not like to pay fees to use public property. However, if a management plan and fee schedule are not put in place, he foresees that this area will get stormed over in the future and possibly end up being taken out of use with closures as a result of abuse. He is not crazy about a fee, but at the same time the fees help support the facility [the borough] is recommending, as well as other facilities around the state. REPRESENTATIVE ROSES expressed his concern about Alaskans who traditionally use this area for berry picking and their receptiveness to a fee. However, he is also concerned that the area could be lost. 3:05:13 PM REPRESENTATIVE EDGMON inquired whether there is strong support for this throughout the Denali Borough. MR. TALERICO answered the borough assembly passed its resolution unanimously, but he cannot say it is 100 percent support. A lot of people have a lot of different ideas and will monitor this closely. He said he thinks there are very strong feelings in support of some type of preservation and management plan in the area. He cannot say it is 100 percent support, but he does think there is very strong support throughout the borough. REPRESENTATIVE EDGMON asked what communities are in the borough. MR. TALERICO said the city of Anderson, the Healy area, McKinley Village, Cantwell, and the Ferry area are the large concentrations of residents. 3:06:50 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON commented that it does not seem that the language on page 2, line 2, would provide for motorized use of the area other than for access by the owners of private property. CO-CHAIR JOHNSON noted this was covered when the sponsor stated his intention to amend the provision by taking out the word "continued". 3:08:26 PM ARMEDA BULARD, Presiding Officer, Denali Borough, stated the borough has been working on the Stampede State Recreation Area for some time now through Representative Guttenberg and Senator Thomas. Mayor Talerico has presented the general consensus of the community from Cantwell to Anderson, she said. The use being referred to is primarily local and local means all the way to Fairbanks. [The borough] would like to be able to have some concrete say-so in this area because of past proposals, which include the federal park taking that chunk of land and expansions such as the proposed road. She related that [the borough] feels any transportation would best be done by putting it on the north side of the north boundary of the national park and go all the way to the rivers. 3:10:49 PM REPRESENTATIVE ROSES cited the provision on page 2, [lines 8-10] which states, "After adequate public hearings and in consultation with the Denali Borough Assembly, the commissioner may designate incompatible uses and shall adopt and may revise a management plan...." He said he would be pretty much against HB 241 if it were not for this public hearing process. He inquired whether Ms. Bulard is comfortable with the way this bill is worded in regard to the public hearing process because a public hearing does not necessarily mean that the advice of the people that testified will be taken. MS. BULARD responded she thinks [the borough] is fairly comfortable with the way the bill is written. The activity level of the people within the borough is such that this would keep a door open for dialog with the state, and preferably through the Division of Parks & Outdoor Recreation. REPRESENTATIVE ROSES asked whether the language "may revise a management plan" leads Ms. Bulard to believe that it is an ongoing fluid process that will continue and one plan will not be put in place and locked forever. MS. BULARD replied yes, nothing in concrete, please. 3:12:42 PM CO-CHAIR JOHNSON [held HB 241] and kept public testimony open.
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